EP. 8: After the Affair: Healing and Rebuilding After Infidelity with Luke Shillings
- odettecoronel
- Nov 19
- 27 min read
Updated: Nov 26
Have you and your partner ever dealt with infidelity? I typically help my clients before it ever gets to that point. Infidelity typically happens because there is a problem in the relationship. My clients and I work together on the everyday patterns and disconnections that, if not addressed, can slowly erode a marriage over time. But my good friend and guest on this week’s podcast episode, Luke Shillings, helps his clients after the affair has happened. I invited Luke onto the podcast to pick his brain about what happens after the affair, and if there’s a way to move forward after a spouse has been betrayed.
Luke Shillings is a relationship and infidelity recovery coach and the host of The After the Affair Podcast. Drawing from personal experience and years of coaching individuals and couples, Luke helps people move from emotional chaos to clarity after betrayal. His work blends compassion with practicality, helping clients rebuild trust, identity, and authentic connection, whether they stay or leave.
In this week’s episode, we talk about healing and rebuilding after infidelity. Luke’s story is special because he has been through infidelity himself. His wife betrayed him, they separated and divorced, and years later, they reconnected and remarried. So infidelity doesn’t always mean the end of the relationship. If both parties want to work towards reconciliation, it can be the start of better communication, answering questions, and building an even stronger relationship than the one they had before. Listen to Luke’s episode to hear his thoughts on rebuilding after infidelity and how both parties can take responsibility for their part in the relationship.
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Transcript: EP. 8: After the Affair: Healing and Rebuilding After Infidelity with Luke Shillings
Odette: Welcome back to Life and Love by Design. I'm your host, Odette Cornell, and today I'm joined by Luke Shillings. Luke is a relationship and infidelity recovery coach and host of the After The Affair Podcast, joined from personal experience and years of coaching individuals and couples, Luke helps people move from emotional chaos to clarity after betrayal.
His work blends compassion with practicality, helping clients rebuild, trust, identity, and authentic connection, whether they stay or they leave. So, welcome Luke. Thank you for having, I'm so happy to have you on today and, I'm really excited about this conversation and, and see where it goes.
Yeah, me too. But before we get into the deep stuff. I wanna start off with something light and something fun. So tell me what's something recently that has made you smile or even laugh?
Luke: Oh wow. Okay. [00:03:00] I'm presuming you have it in the US as well. Uh, the TV series traders and it's on, do do, I dunno whether you have it.
I'm sure it's, it's, yeah, I'm sure it, I'm sure it is dotted around the world. But anyway, it's, it's pretty big in the UK and they're running a celebrity version of it at the moment and the finals this coming week. And me and my partner have been like. Oh, absolutely. Like consuming every possible component of it.
And, and I think there's all, there's a, there's a kind of a twisted irony given that obviously what I do is help the betrayed partner overcome betrayal. And, you know, we could argue that, uh, I have. A, a specific insight into deception that maybe lots of other people don't get to see. So the idea of the TV show, the Traitors, which is really about the faithful versus the, the traitors, literally in this case.
It, um, yeah, it makes it for really exciting for. Post episode analysis, which me and my partner enjoy very, very much.
Odette: Hmm. I don't know. I mean, we must have [00:04:00] it here, so I'm gonna have to look it up. We'll talk afterwards so you can tell me what Yeah, sure. Network, I can find it in. Sounds interesting. So, but leading, you know, speaking about that, tell me how it is that you became to specialize in helping people heal after infidelity.
Tell me a little bit about your, your story.
Luke: Sure. Yeah. I, I, I think with. A lot of, or what I've come to learn is a, a lot of people who I've come across over recent years be that coaches or other professionals in their field of passion, it's common to be driven by something that happened to themselves.
And of course, that's no different for me. I. Experience, betrayal in my own marriage, my own relationship. It was something that I really had not expected. I genuinely believed I was very happily married. perfect. No, but certainly nothing to have, worried about in, at least from what I was concerned.
it turns out that my wife, that was not the place [00:05:00] that she was at. And ultimately an affair led to our separation and divorce and that. In many ways, although unbeknownst to me at the time, became a, a catalyst, an opportunity to do something really different with a very difficult situation, um, I, I decided that I didn't want this.
Specific experience of my life to define me and therefore wanted to turn it into something where not only I was helping myself, but also being able to help others too. And that's exactly what I've done. I've spent the last five or six years doing exactly that and helping hundreds, if not thousands of people in the process.
And it's been, uh, very, very rewarding. I love every minute of it.
Odette: Yeah. That's amazing. You know, you what, you went through this experience, which I'm sure was. Not easy was very challenging to deal with. And you took that experience and decided, I'm gonna help other people. I'm gonna take everything that I've learned and I'm gonna [00:06:00] use it to help others.
And I think that, uh, that's amazing and I think that that adds to your own authenticity because you've been there.
Luke: Yeah.You know, if I'm, if I'm honest, it was never about healing me, as in that was not the purpose for my, journey into this in some sense.
But in many ways, of course, it does constantly pour good quality self-love into myself to, to really help me through everything that I've experienced. And, and I think being an example of what's possible for people who have been betrayed is something that I'll always endeavor to, to do.
Odette: Yeah. Yeah. I love that being an example of what is possible.
And tell me a little bit about what you mean by that.
Luke: Well, I think when we've experienced any difficult. Challenge in our life, particularly when we feel felt hard done by in some way. So particularly when it comes to betrayal, it's some other person, some external circumstances that's outside of our [00:07:00] control as created a situation for us that we really are not comfortable with and can be incredibly painful and incredibly disorienting.
And I think the default is to want to run away from that discomfort. And hide from it. And we bury ourselves in shame and guilt and asking relentless questions of how we didn't see it coming and why we didn't, Notice what was going on right in front of our eyes, and then we beat ourselves up relentlessly as a consequence of that, which can really keep us stuck and we can start to wear this identity of I am a betrayed spouse.
And maybe we can even add on the layer of I'm a victim and yeah, okay, technically we are a victim of circumstance, but that's not an identity that we're gonna want to embody moving forward. So when I think about what, being an example of what possible is to somebody who has been betrayed, it's being able to take a very difficult situation [00:08:00] and use it for something, not only just to get you back to, in some sense where you were, but actually to create something that you didn't realize was possible for you.
And of course, I've changed my life completely since that experience, and I could honestly say that it's probably one of the best things that ever happened to me despite the. Enormous amount of pain and discomfort that I had to go through in the short term to then get to this, this thing. But, but by really sticking with that and not giving up, it has, yeah, it has, has proved well, very valuable.
And obviously it acts as an example of what could be possible for somebody else, even if they took a very different path to me.
Odette: Yeah, no, that's an, you know, an incredible journey. You're not just an example of what is possible, but you're an example of what I like to call living by design. Loving by design, you decided what you wanted to do with this experience that was so difficult that happened to you, and you designed something you didn't wanna [00:09:00] stay in in as a victim.
Even though you were a victim of something that happened, you decided to take that and change your life, and your life is completely different today. Than it was, you know, prior to the betrayal. Very. And, uh, you've literally designed your life based on what was, based on what was accepting what was, and you decided what to make of it.
Luke: Exactly. And yeah, it's very easy to be angry and resistant at the world around us. You know, whether that be our partner's behaviors, whether that be your boss, whether that be politics, whether it be, whatever it is, it's very easy to get angry and frustrated at the things that are usually outside of our direct control and, and almost hold them directly responsible for our own discomfort and okay, fine.
They may have been the stimulus that, that sort of. Set that emotional experience in motion, but they are not the ones in control of it. You are. [00:10:00] And. I think just knowing that knowing that you've got some autonomy in your own emotional experience is so important. And it's funny you talk about intention.
When I, when I first started coaching, my coaching program was called On Purpose Coaching. And for, for that exact reason, it's because we're doing things on purpose. This is not by accident. This is about focusing, it's about setting a plan. It's about moving forward one, one step at a time and building all of those steps to, to help us feel safe and secure, and.
There's a foundation in place to, to, to build something new from, yeah,
Odette: yeah, absolutely. You know, I also work with couples and I, I have, I don't specialize in infidelity, but I have, you know, worked with couples that have faced infidelity. And a lot of times people assume that it's just about sex, that that's the betrayal.
And of course that is a huge part of it, but it's so much deeper than that. What is something that you think. You want people to know [00:11:00] just in terms of what the deeper meaning behind that betrayal?
Luke: Well, I suppose there's, there's two things to consider. One is the, from the betrayed partner's perspective, it always feels like you are the problem.
It feels like this must mean something about you. And of course that is. Virtually never the case. It's not about you. It wasn't even done to you, which I know sounds really hard to hear, but it was done for them. There's something missing either within the relationship or within the individual who betrayed a.
And they may not be even aware of it. You know, we come into relationships carrying all manner of experiences and wounds, and maybe even in some cases, traumas that don't really, we're not aware of, at least not in the way that we may come to be aware of later on in life. And then. Can be almost like the lens for which we approach this relationship.
So it's not surprising that sometimes when something doesn't [00:12:00] feel fulfilled by a partner and there's a, a shining bright light over there, then all of a sudden that is quite appealing. So I think you're right. And, on the one hand, the. Sex plays a, a component, but actually I would say it's a pretty small component.
Uh, very, very small in, in the overall kind of scheme of things. It's always about connection or fulfill or fulfilling some need that has been unmet in some way and. It's not that the betrayed partner hasn't met the needs of their partner, it's that the unfaithful partner is not even known really what their needs are or how to communicate them or how to do anything about it when they're feeling lacking in some sense.
So communication and connection, uh, really at the, the peak of the, of the, of the issue, I suppose, for most people.
Odette: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, of course, you know, both parties have a role in whatever that disconnection [00:13:00] is. Sure. But the act of the betrayal is, I, I would agree with that, is usually about the person doing the betrayal.
There's some need that's not fulfilled, or there's some trauma that's that's, you know, been triggered or has surfaced and they're trying to fill that void somehow.
Luke: Of course. Yeah. I mean, both partners are definitely responsible for how they show up in their relationship. That's always true, irrespective of whether betrayal has occurred or not.
But the actions of one person are not the responsibility of the other, and I think that's where we can sometimes get lost and, and often. There can be a delay in understanding there. If we think about the, the unfaithful partner, well, they've already been going through this emotional experience. They, perhaps they formed this connection with another person, whatever that's looked like.
And in some cases that's been going on for days, weeks, months. In some cases, even years or even decades, they can be, be very lengthy in some cases. So they're in a very different place to the portrayed partner when [00:14:00] they discover it. It's almost like we're playing the same game, but with different rules.
And it makes it really hard to bridge that connection because. When two people thought they were perfectly aligned, the betrayal comes along, which completely derails the betrayed spouse, and now all of a sudden they're miles and miles and miles apart and trying to rebuild that connection is, is not easy, but it's definitely achievable if both partners are willing to take responsibility for their part in the rebuilding process.
Right.
Odette: Yeah. And sometimes the many times the person that was betrayed feels, you know what, why am I not enough? What did I do wrong? You know, what, what do they have? What does the other person have that I don't have? And it's, it's just deeper than that. So that, that, it's always deeper than that. And there's also emotional betrayal.
There's, there are instances where it doesn't become physical or it hasn't been physical yet. But [00:15:00] that emotional, you know, we've heard of emotional affairs in the workplace or things like that, they can be quite painful for the partner. Oh, absolutely. That's, you know, being betrayed.
Luke: I mean, ultimately when we think about.
You know, we, it's interesting, we, we think even just the word infidelity, like what does it really mean? And actually it's different things to different people. Uh, you know, the betrayal is ultimately the betrayal of trust. It's the, if we think of trust as being one person's belief that somebody would act in the way that we'd anticipated, and then they fail to act in that way, then that trust has been broken in some sense.
And. That's really where the betrayal stems from. And that can be many, many different things. Yeah. Everything from, you're right, justa one off situation that occurred on a business trip to a, you know, a, a 10 year really in depth affair and everything in between.
Odette: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's about trust.
The word infidelity, fidelity is, is all wrapped up [00:16:00] around trust. So when that trust is broken. It's so difficult to, to rebuild, but it's possible. But it just, it's so much work to, to rebuild that trust.
Luke: Yes, yes. It can be, it can can be quite the journey, but one worth taking irrespective of what the outcome of the relationship ultimately is.
Odette: Yeah. So I know that you coach people that have been betrayed and you also. Coach, people that have betrayed their partners. Mm-hmm. What is that experience like? 'cause I know, of course, as coaches we have to manage our own state and we're not, we're not here to judge, or we might, we remain unbiased. And yet, especially as someone who has experienced the other side of the coin of the coin and been betrayed.
I can see how that could be a little bit challenging.
Luke: Yeah, it's interesting because you're not the first person to, to make that comment or observation [00:17:00] and Yeah. I can't actually remember it ever feeling uncomfortable in a, in a particular, so not from, yeah, no, not from a personal perspective. I think in part because, yeah.
When I went through my own experience, one of the things that I really focused on to help me heal just, and it's just one component, it's by no means the whole thing was really trying to understand the perspective of the unfaithful spouse. Yeah. And in, in my situation, it was somebody I knew. not that I had conversations with that person afterwards, but I was able to, at least from.
I suppose an empathy perspective to try and really try and understand what was maybe going on in their world and what that looked like and, and what their motivations were. And, but really doing it from a place of as minimal judgment as I could, which of course was hard 'cause there are lots of emotions tied up and maybe I do have a natural advantage that I'm able to maybe compartmentalize certain components.
Not [00:18:00] to not deal with them, but just so that I can almost say Okay. Right. We're objectively looking at this specific set of information, this data, what am I making it mean? And is that the only option? Could something else be true? And the more I looked into that, I, again, I realized that it was far less about me, which is what I thought originally.
You know, I always thought like, well, they must be better than me, or, you know, my wife must think that they're better than me. Or some combination of those things and. I realized that it just wasn't about that. That's just not, that's just not what it was about. So. Actually as the time's gone by. one of the reasons, or one of the reasons at least that I've really quite enjoyed working with those who have been unfaithful, but want to make some changes in their life, is both in terms of getting a, a continually deeper understanding of what their experiences, which I can then share and learn from, and also help the portrayed spouses.
but also I think it just, [00:19:00] it helps put. Infidelity, although again, uncomfortable as it might be for some people to accept as a neutral circumstance in the world, and it's not until we as individuals apply meaning to it, does it become a problem? And that's okay. Like I'm not saying it shouldn't be a problem for you.
It definitely should be a problem for you, based on everything that we base our relationships on and trust. but it doesn't have all of the power and it's not something that you probably want to. Identify as, or to continue to identify with for the rest of your life. So really understanding has, has a huge, a huge benefit moving forward.
It doesn't mean you have to like what the other person did. It doesn't mean you have to, you know, justify it in any, in any way. It doesn't mean you have to just forget it and get over it. None of that,
Odette: you know? And I imagine that getting to that place takes time.
Luke: Of course.
Odette: It's okay to be angry. It's okay to be.
You know, to [00:20:00] feel all of your feelings. You're entitled to feel everything that you feel, but it's a matter of not staying there. It's about getting to the other side and really understanding why, you know, what was going on for my partner, what was going on for the person that did the betraying, but I'm sure that that was quite a journey to get from.
Yeah.
Luke: Oh, for sure.
Odette: And, and I think initially happened to them getting to the place of just really finding it neutral and, and getting to, you know, let me see what's really underneath.
Luke: I, I think under, I think understanding your own pace is important.
Odette: Yeah.
Luke: SoIf our nervous systems are dysregulated as, as a consequences of something like this, which of course they often are, you know, this is a pretty extreme, discovery that, that you may have experienced.
Particularly if this is something you've experienced recently. It's a real shock to your nervous system and trying to understand how to keep yourself safe, but. Not to the point where you [00:21:00] build a wall so tall that you not only can other people not get in, but you can't get out, that can keep you stuck in that location for too long.
On the flip side, trying to, you know, logically and just kind of, I dunno, I suppose intellectualize the process too quickly. Be disruptive for your nervous system and your nervous system isn't ready to catch up. So you can make logical sense of everything that's gone on and you can say, okay, well I can look at this from neutral perspective and I can understand this and this and this and this, but your body's not ready.
So understanding your pace between both logic and emotion is hugely important. And of course, it's not the same for everybody.
[00:22:00]
Odette: Yeah. And you wanna make sure that you do continue to protect yourself. There are people that. Become serial betrayal. We don't really address what it's, that's going on. It can, it can happen again.
It can become a pattern
Luke: of course,
Odette: so it's not, it's also a matter of, okay, let's really understand what happened so that we can learn from it and not let it happen again.
Luke: Yeah, andthe things that I see, which. Can sometimes be concerning, particularly for the betrayed spouse, is they become detectives and then everything is about just trying to find the next piece of information.
Right. It's just a continual [00:23:00] barrage of questions. And of course it's that lack of trust, right? So then they just wanna know. Of course. Yeah. Absolutely. And it, it makes perfect sense. I mean, human beings, we, we are pretty much hardwired to seek certainty. So when we feel uncertain. We do something to try and rebalance the scales in some way, but the problem is when we get answers to the questions that we ask, it usually then creates two more questions, and that just continues on and on and on and on.
So that there is a balance between knowing enough so that you can feel safe to move forward and not overwhelming yourself with too much information because. Definitely worked with plenty of people who asked a lot of information, very specific details. It was shared and that's quite hard to sometimes take away.
Odette: Yeah. Sometimes it's not useful to just know every single detail.
Luke: Definitely not.
Odette: It's not helpful, is it? So when do you know when forgiveness is possible and when it's just time to. To end things
Luke: Well, I think forgiveness is available irrespective of whether you stay or leave, first of all, because [00:24:00] forgiveness is ultimately for you.
It's not for you, a person, for you. You know, forgiveness is, if we think about what lack of forgiveness is, well, lack of forgiveness is, is like carrying a heavy weight on your shoulders. It's like dragging it everywhere you go, it slows you down. It's uncomfortable you, you can't move freely in some sense.
By, and it's under the illusion that if we were to put it down that the other person is sort of off the hook. Like rather you're don what they did. Yeah, exactly. And of course it's, and it's, that's not what we're doing at all. That's not what forgiveness is. Forgiveness is about releasing that burden on you.
Odette: I think
Oprah
Odette: says forgiveness is about letting go of the wish that the past would've been different.
Luke: Yeah.
Odette: Kind of accepting what was, you're not condoning it. You're just accepting that that's what happened. That's what I was,
Luke: exactly, and
Odette: and you're right. It's for yourself. It's a gift that you give to yourself.
So you let go of that burden that you're carrying.
Luke: You don't have to tell the other person that you've forgiven them. In fact, I would arguably, if I was gonna, if I was going to choose, [00:25:00] probably recommend not to.
Odette: Yeah. Like
Luke: it is not needed because then, because then there's an agenda behind it. 'cause what are you hoping from that specifically?
You're making it about them just by, just by communicating that. And of course for the, for the unfaithful spouse who's feeling guilt and potentially shame, they're probably seeking that word. And if they hear that word, it is as though, oh, okay. Now we can carry on as normal. Yeah. All is forgiven. Yeah, let's move
Odette: on.
Luke: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And yeah, I mean obviously like every situation is, is complicated to, to some extent, but the patterns are pretty consistent throughout, irrespective of the, the, the individual details, right?
Odette: Yeah. So that makes sense. Forgiveness is something that you wanna come to no matter what, because it's part of your own healing.
Luke: Mm-hmm. A hundred percent.
Odette: Yeah. So how do you, I think, and you know, in your case you decided to rebuild the relationship. Mm-hmm. You were able to rebuild trust and, and it wasn't easy, [00:26:00] but you are again, an example of that possibility as well. It doesn't necessarily have to mean the end of the relationship.
It could be a new beginning in the relationship. And sometimes the challenges that we face, if it doesn't break you, it just, it tests you and it makes you stronger. But what does that path to rebuilding trust, rebuilding that commitment, what does that look like?
Luke: Well, I suppose, I mean, again, just for the sake of clarity for the listeners briefly, me and my wife, initially I'd wanted to rebuild a relationship or to try and stay in the relationship and save it, but that was, and I had some boundaries that I put in place, and ultimately she wasn't able to come to that place.
So we separated and divorced, and she remained in a relationship with the affair partner for a little while. We actively co-parented and really focused on what that looked like. 'cause it was really important to both of us. And you know, she definitely pulled her weight in, in there as well. I, I can't take all the credit for that.[00:27:00]
And then a, a few years later, we were both in a place where things were different. Their relationship had come to an end. We'd both been single for a while. We'd, um, you know, done dating and various bits and, and decided to. See what reconnection might look like for us. And that's ultimately what we ended up doing.
And sort of fast forward, uh, another two or three years. And that brings us to where we are now. And so a couple of things. One is. On the one hand, and it sounds a bit, again, a bit cliche, that that first part or first phase of the relationship was over. That was, it was, it was done and we, this was not about trying to rebuild what was, if, if anything, that would've been the kind of the last thing we wanted to do because Right, right.
You don't wanna. Exactly what was, wasn't working exactly what was led to what happened. So at least, at least it contributed in some sense, right? So going back to that place didn't make sense. So maybe it was about, a clarity and an awareness of what could [00:28:00] be and what that might look like. And that started really just by.
Being much more open and transparent with our communication and both of us, you know, we, we both played a huge part in this and checking in more regularly, really understanding what was aligned, what were the things that we liked and what we didn't like. And of course, sometimes when you've had that. That the bombshell of betrayal occur.
You and I was often the case for many partners is all of a sudden there's an openness that exists that wasn't there whilst the relationship was there. It's almost like the weight and the pressure of the relationship is removed temporarily so that you can be very open and just say really what you're thinking.
It's like, it's almost like the
Odette: worst thing that can happen happened.
Luke: Exactly.
Odette: So here we are and let's go. We can be open, we can be vulnerable
Luke: completely. We've been
Odette: through it all
Luke: and the people pleasing hat gets taken off and we just show up authentically as we are. We can be
Odette: honest. Yeah,
Luke: yeah, yeah, exactly.
And And you might be surprised what you discover about each other because thinkOne of the [00:29:00] challenges that many people get into is they make an assessment of their partner very early on in the relationship and then it kind of stays as this loose sort of static perspective of that's who my partner is.
I know them and you know, so regularly that I think of people who've been together for a long time have this perception that they know their partner better than anybody and they know them like them, know them better than they know themselves, but. What I've come to learn over the years is actually what we are really good at is predicting behavior, but we're not necessarily so good at predicting the motivation behind that behavior.
So we might have seen our partners show up in a fairly consistent way for many, many years, and we believe because we knew what that meant in the early days. It still means the same thing now, but. Motivation may have changed. It may have changed to obligation, it may have even shifted towards resentment.
And this can have a real detrimental effect on a relationship as it goes forward. And that's because those regular check-ins weren't occurring. [00:30:00] Right. And often because life gets in the way, you know, we have kids. Yeah. All the things. Exactly.
Odette: And work and
Luke: Yeah.
Odette: And yeah, that's where communication is so important because.
You're not the same person that you were when you first met or when you first got married? You know, I've been married almost. I've been married over 26 years, almost 27 years, and the person I am today is not who I was
Luke: exactly
Odette: 25 years ago, or
Luke: no,
Odette: and it wasn't who I was 10 years ago or even five years ago.
We're constantly growing and changing and evolving, and that's what's supposed to happen. But if we don't keep communicating with our partners, if we don't keep checking in. Then we don't, you don't know who I am today. You know who I was, but you don't necessarily know who I am today, exactly what. So that, that is so important to continue to check in and have those, uh, those that time together.
Luke: Yeah. And I think this is, is why often you can get to a certain point in your relationship and let's say something like betrayal occurs. And it's not only betrayal, but but [00:31:00] it's a significant life event. And you look at your partner and it's all, it's, it's, it's like you don't know who they are.
Odette: Yeah. It's like they're a stranger.
Luke: Yeah. And it's because you've not been looking at them. You've been looking at other things like your career, the kids, whatever it is, and it's like. That's fine, because that's what society says. We're doing the right thing, we're showing up, we're being the all of the things. But a relationship isn't just a decision you make and then forget about it.
You know, even the vows that you make when if you get married, then they're not just something that you say and then just forget about, oh, well that's it. It's done, and dust now. Don't need to worry about that for the rest of my life. No, it's a continual choice. You wake up every day, you choose to love your partner.
You wake up every day, you choose to, you know, honor the things over and over. You choose. Over and over and over and over and over again every single day. And I sometimes say that to people and they're like, oh, that sounds exhausting. Like, but I don't really understand how or why you would not want to choose your partner.
Like why or why? Or more importantly, why would you continue to do the same thing if you didn't choose [00:32:00] it? Like, what are you doing?
Odette: Right. What's the point then
Luke: if you're not choosing?
Odette: Yeah. What's the point? If you're not committed, then what is the point?
Luke: Exactly. And I think we can just, yeah. Just slip off that, that path quite easily if we're not careful.
Odette: Yeah, yeah. Because you know, then it leads to, you could just make assumptions about each other and there's no point in making assumptions. We need to be able to express what we need and also we need to be able to be in tune with what our partner needs and make sure that we're listening and we're seeing our partner as they are.
Yeah, yeah.
Luke: Agreed.
Odette: it's funny 'cause people say that relationships are so hard and marriage is hard and. Not that it's not hard, of course, it's hard. Anything that we, that is important to us is hard. Just like having children, you know, work is hard, but I don't know where I heard it, but they said when it's something that stresses you out or that you are dreading when you think about it, that's hard work.
That's stressful. But when it's something that you're passionate about and is meaningful to you, it, yes, it's a lot of work, but it's [00:33:00] something that you do because you're passionate about it and you really care. Yeah. I mean it's, it's almost like work that we wanna do that we can't imagine not doing.
Luke: Exactly. He's like, yeah, yeah. I, I can't imagine not doing what I do now. And yeah, of course there are components of what I do that are challenging. There's components of being a father that's challenging life. That's life. Anything. Of course it is. Anything worth it is. Yeah. And I can be, I can be, you know, frustrated and angry at that, or I can choose it and do it anyway.
Exactly. Exactly. Because it's who I want to be. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not kidding myself. There's no, there's no illusion there. I don't believe that anybody else should kid themselves too. Even if it's a shock. Even if now, today, as you are going through whatever it is you're going through right now, whether even it's just listening to, to, to this conversation, and all of a sudden it's like the, the, the curtains come down and you're seeing yourself, or you're seeing your life or seeing your relationship to a different perspective.
It can be [00:34:00] terrifying. And the safest and easiest thing to do is to get back under the covers and not go anywhere and just keep going for another five years. But ask your future self. Like, what are they gonna think about you looking back in a few years time? Are, are they gonna be proud of you?
Are they gonna be thinking really that was what you thought was the best thing to do. That time doesn't make it easy, but if, but nothing worthwhile, easy. Yeah.
Odette: It's almost like when you accept that life is not supposed to be easy, it's not meant to be easy. It just, then things become easy in my mind because
Luke: Agreed.
Odette: It's just, this is what it is. You
Luke: accept. I teach a concept called 50 50 for that reason.
Odette: Yeah,
Luke: right. You know, Often you ask the question of like, well, what should be the balance of positive to negative emotion or wanted to unwanted emotion? And everyone's like, oh, it should be 90% positive and 10% negative, or 80% positive.
And it's like, well, happiness doesn't exist without sadness like. It's all on a spectrum, and they're all there and they're all available. And it's not, not that you have [00:35:00] to feel angry or you have to feel sad, or you have to feel betrayed. You get to, you choose to, they're available to you and they're all physically, and sometimes it's completely appropriate to feel that way.
Absolutely appropriate to feel, you know, happy a hundred percent of the time. No, completely. And, and it is, it is about that being willing. To almost desiring to feel, you know? Mm-hmm. There are lots of emotions. I mean, anxiety's a, a close friend of mine and, you know, I recognize, I recognize it is, is pretty, can be pretty helpful sometimes.
Yeah. But it also gets a bit carried away from time to time.
Odette: Right. We with, you know, with anxiety, I, I like to tell my clients, you know, it's, it's trying to tell you a message. What is the message that it's sending you? It's okay to be aware of it. Notice it, feel it. Once you feel it and you've got the message, then you can move on from it.
Yeah. Take
Luke: the
Odette: message from it and And move on from it.
Luke: Not plan, but it could be very useful
Odette: and helpful.
Luke: Yeah, exactly. [00:36:00] You know, I mean, anxiety just wants you to put in at many possible backup plans to, you know, to cover every possible eventuality. Yeah. Just in case. Just in case. And of course, none of those things ever come to fruition.
Odette: No. Right. So
Luke: funny.
Odette: Yeah. Okay. This is great. This is great. So I wanna ask you, the show's called Life and Love by Design. So how do you define or design life and love when you're talking about someone that has experience betrayal?
Luke: Don't be afraid of the discomfort.
Odette: Mm.
Luke: Don't be afraid of it like, like you just said, it is there to teach you.
Anxiety is there to teach you and as is every other emotion that you experience. They're all notifications, they're all little signals, little messages. They don't get to dictate the show, but they are there as information which [00:37:00] you get to use to help me move forward. The more we hide away or try to run away from those feelings, the harder it is to get to a place where we feel safe and loved and loving and happy and content and peaceful and all of the emotions that most people would probably list.
When you said, how do you want to feel and you know, often I think happiness, or at least the people who. Want to be happy, are usually unhappy because they believe that they should be happy. Where if you, release the pressure that you're putting yourself on that expectation and acknowledge that actually being sad and angry and hurt and upset and frightened and, and all of the other things, that is part of what it means to be human.
Yeah. And, and accepting that is actually, well, that's how you love yourself. And that's where it starts. Yeah.
Odette: Oh, I love that. I love that. Embracing the [00:38:00] discomfort and being okay with it.
Luke: Yep.
Odette: That's
Luke: what makes
Odette: you human.
Luke: A hundred percent. I mean, the, the world's gonna continually throw things at you so you can sit there in your little, you know, castle, your little fortress with your big walls up, getting angry at everything going on, but then you just remain disconnected and alone and isolated, and that's not fun.
Odette: Yeah. I love it. This has been amazing. Uh, one last question just for fun. What is a book or some kind of quote that really is meaningful for you?
Luke: everything becomes clear after it's happened. I think we get stuck in a place of seeking clarity before it's safe to move forward, but clarity is not possible until you're on the other side. So taking action is always gonna move you forward, and then things become, and then the
Odette: clarity comes. And
Luke: then the [00:39:00] clarity clumps.
Yeah.
Odette: I love that. I love that. What do you tell the listeners where they can find you, how they can connect with you?
Luke: Yeah, so I think the, as as you mentioned at the top, I'm, uh, podcast host myself the After the Affair podcast. You can find it on all of the major podcast platforms. Um, or you can visit my, um, Instagram page at my life.
Coach Luke,
Odette: I. Excellent. Well, Luke, thank you so much for being on. I hope that you'll come back again and we'll have another amazing conversation and for everyone else. Until next time, remember that your life and your love are yours to design.
Luke: [00:40:00]
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